I have been following a thread of discussion that is floating around several different blogs. I am not linking to them because I do not want to get dragged kicking and screaming into a name calling contest with these bloggers. Nonetheless, I'm sure they'll eventually find their way here, and God help my comments section when they do. I'm half tempted to turn them off for this one.
The subject matter of this thread pertains to the place of women in ministry and leadership roles and how the emerging church needs to address this issue head on.
Oh.
My.
God.
Friends, I was nurtured in the bosom of Boomer evangelicalism. I know from whence they speak. I was a seeker before before anyone thought about being sensitive to what I was seeking.
I have served as an ordained minister in a mainline denomination for 12 years now, having left the warm bosom of the congregation that nurtured me to attend a mainline Presbyterian seminary 17 years ago. It took us all of half a day in "Greek School" before all of us incoming seminary juniors were marched into a room for orientation and got right to the heart of the most pressing matter that would face us over the next three years of seminary and a lifetime of ministry in the church -- what pronouns and metaphors were appropriate to use in reference to God.
I have spent the last 17 years swimming in this ethos. One would have thought we'd have gotten this settled by now, but we're not even close, nor are we ever going to settle it. The inevitable outcome for us of these discussions has been a system of affirmative action that, right, wrong or indifferent, has its origins in secular culture. And the fact that we have to follow the secular culture's lead on matters such as these rather than the Spirit of the Living God at work in his people's giftedness is a stunning indictment of our faithlessness. Maybe it's just the voice of a middle-aged man lamenting as he watches younger men and women tread down a well-worn but fruitless path, but I can't help but be saddened as I watch yet another generation of church leaders chase this particular rabbit down the trail.
These issues simply are not the central consideration of the gospel and the church's mission, but they and other derivative issues will continue to sap the life out of the church's mission as though they were. And there is a reason why they will not ever be settled.
These conversations are not about giftedness. They are not about leadership. They are about power, and who gets to wield it. And we labor under the ultimate conceit if we believe that question is ours to settle.
If then there is any encouragement in Christ, any consolation from love, any sharing in the Spirit, any compassion and sympathy, make my joy complete: be of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility regard others as better than yourselves. Let each of you look not to your own interests, but to the interests of others. Let the same mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited, but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness. And being found in human form, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death - even death on a cross. Therefore God also highly exalted him and gave him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.Posted by Mike at January 29, 2004 12:13 PM | TrackBack- Philippians 2:1-11 (NRSV)
I was also raised as an Evangelical and have since become a Presbyterian. On an intellectual level I have (mostly) accepted that the Bible doesn't have any real prohibition against Women Pastors. However, to be honest, it still bugs me a little.
When the issue first came up I sought guidance from the Bible and from various commentators. Unfortunately, they all seemed to be advocating for their own agenda and not really addressing this issue which I see as, Does the Bible really prohibit Women in leadership roles? (including as Pastor) and if the biblical references are purely cultural to that era then what do we use as the criteria for establishing that they are purely cultural?
Unfortunately you didn't attempt to answer these questions! Rev Mike, where are you in my time of "dire" intellectual and spiritual need? I mean it's great to see pictures of you in the snow and everything, but how about something to chew on? ...and don't pay any attention to those pesky commenters.
-Jim.
My seminary also had an "inclusive language" policy, but it was totally unenforced. Of course, the rest of our denomination thought we were a bunch of knuckle-dragging Neanderthals anyway . . .
Posted by: Mark Hasty at January 29, 2004 03:02 PM"These issues simply are not the central consideration of the gospel and the church's mission, but they and other derivative issues will continue to sap the life out of the church's mission as though they were." Well said, Mike.
Unfortunately, I have seen this in my own church, where a discussion of giving financial support for a young man (who grew up in our church and is now on staff with Campus Crusade) seemed to turn on the issue of the young man's decision to join a PCA church in his area and the PCA stance on women in leadership. We have always ended up supporting him, but the arguments aren't glorifying to God or focused on the church's wider mission in the world.
I wish that we could somehow get past these peripheral (in my opinion) matters and pull together to "make disciples of all nations."
Posted by: Lee Anne Millinger at January 29, 2004 04:27 PMGood topic, Mike. After reading it I thought you might be interested in this post at Dry Bones Dance.
Posted by: Joe Carter at January 29, 2004 05:01 PMI agree generally, with one proviso. Part of this discussion has touched on the way that men and women relate to each other in community, and in particular whether men and women "know how to be friends" with each other.
To the extent that this discussion touches on our ability to be in community with each, to the extent that it is a response to a genuine feeling that people are being excluded and devalued in the life of the church, then I think that it is concerned with Kingdom issues.
Posted by: dan at January 29, 2004 08:40 PMDan, I appreciate your comment because you clearly see something there that I missed. (An object lesson in the subject matter at hand? :) ) I hope that everyone who reads understands that I am not speaking against the conversation in itself. I speak only as one who has observed this discussion going on for well over 20 years in the institutional church, and our inability to resolve the issues is one thing that has accelerated our eventual demise. I would hate to see the emerging church head down a path that has already proven this divisive to the institutional church and experience the same outcome.
Posted by: Rev. Mike at January 29, 2004 09:24 PMAs a Bible college student and as a woman in ministry, I have experienced arguments for both sides of the issue at hand time and time again. I have no desire to argue the matter any further. I could go into the theology, but I don't have the energy. If anyone would like me to email them, I would be more than happy to. However, I will say this: I am not a feminist, I do not have a cause. I have a call. Men of God, I cannot stress to you enough the importance of your support for your sisters in the ministry.
Posted by: Sarah at January 29, 2004 09:29 PMThis is the first time I've seen this discussion on a blog where women added their voice.
Usually it is men arguing.
Maybe this became genuine dialogue because what you focused on is true.
Mike, thank you for a balanced and well reasoned argument. The gender of God is not a central issue to the Gospel message, neither is it an issue in relation to how God sees us as his children. I get fed up with people on both sides of this divide who want to make it a central issue - and you are right, this is not about the gospel at all, it is about power and who weilds it. The message of the Gospel is the only imperative that should concern us all!
Posted by: The Gray Monk at January 30, 2004 06:19 PMDon't think I have much to add, but I like how you view this issue, Mike. Thanks for this post.
Posted by: Rhesa at January 31, 2004 07:23 PMRev. Mike,
"You said God's power and God's glory are one and the same thing.
God will share NEITHER of them with the likes of us.
If God wills to display his power in whomever he chooses to display it, nothing in heaven or on earth or under the earth will be able to withstand it."
I say right on! I commented on this topic over at the heresy.com and pomomusings. Leighton's always very evenhanded, but I was jumped on by a lady, over at pomomusings, who accused me of all kinds of opinions that I didn't even write. I detected a great deal of hurt behind her over-reaction. There are always those who abuse their authority in the Church and the work place or wherever. (a problem that is worthy of confrontation)You are right this is about control and control is always the issue in church-splits or any other divisions. The only control that believers are required to display is the control of self. Gal.5:22-26. As for the ec I believe they are in for a rude awakening when they come to the self-realization that they have met the enemy, and it is them. We are all the CHURCH and the LORD only overlooks the disobedient.Good cite from Phillipians also!
Chris P.
can't we all just get along?
Posted by: Anita at February 2, 2004 09:47 PM